Discussion

By James Olsen on Apr 10, 2015

Hi Frank: When and in what presses will this appear?

Thanks

Jim

 

By Frank Romano on Apr 10, 2015

This technology will be applied the the HP Web Inkjet presses soon.

It is also retrofittable.

 

By Henry Freedman on Apr 10, 2015

So HP pushes thermal ink jet to the limits with a process that increases in complexity to work around issues as time goes on. The smaller drops helps HP address issues they had at the first 600dpi writing they did since basically they had larger droplets being generated impactin IQ. However as droplets get smaller the speed of the press comes into question since the droplets lack the mass and velocity to reach paper as press speed increases. Suggest you look at the term "high speed ink jet" where some inkjet systems print inkjet daily at over 2000 fpm yet some call 400 fpm "high speed." Our industry deserves more technical definitions than marketing spin when to comes to technology. While we are here, what is the paper waste and drying energy costs on these systems?

 

By Roy Friedman on Apr 11, 2015

The HP T410 has a ~42" throat. It runs at up to 183 meters/min.

It means that a 41" sheet is print a "wide" like most of the offset sheet fed press.

If I got it right it means that the T410 is a ~15,000 impression (41" or 70x100cm) per hour press (!).

So on the end of the day even IF the press has to go down ~30% in speed, it still keep a throughput of ~10,000 sph which is defiantly comparable to most of the offset presses out there, speed wise.

As quality is defiantly there as Frank shared I guess print service provider should re calculate their digital vs. conventional offset ROIs.

Just my opinion.

(I work for HP, I do not work for IHPS division so the above is a mix of spec. I see on the internet and past knowledge in offset while working for Heidelberg and my personal opinion.

 

By Henry Freedman on Apr 12, 2015

Hello Roy, yes HP must go wide to get productivity since the speed is limited as I mentioned in my comment.

 

By Henry Freedman on Apr 12, 2015

One other point Roy regarding your comparison to offset production. The offset press produces greater than twice the image quality than the T410 on wide range of high quality coated papers at a lower cost as well as a wider range of noncoated papers with a choice of different inks and manufacturers in a smaller footprint, with lass overall maintenance and faster job turnover on press (today's technology can do this in under 10 minutes and waste 10 sheets. Web waste is huge compared to this for a job start. No offset sheet-fed could ever approach the throughput of an offset web, however todays offset sheetfeds will beat IJ Webs in totsl real job volume including the HP T410 in overall output. So actually, for the first time in history I believe we have a 40" sheetfed beating a 30" web press due to the IJ process speed limitations which is topic here.

 

By Frank Romano on Apr 12, 2015

Thank you Henry. We know that offset quality is great, but I have seen work from the HP presses, and even other digital presses, that rivals offset. Users are ordering 2nd and 3rd and 4th HP presses so they must be doing something right. And offset is NOT less expensive than digital for short runs. The quick changeover you mention is only available on newer offset presses and over 90 percent of the exisiting offsets are legacy machines. Even you know that. It is a new world order as you have probably discovered from your consulting with Xerox. Love, Frank.

 

By Henry Freedman on Apr 12, 2015

OK Frank since you feel that IJ presses today rival offset, why don't we do a color printing shootout video here between the new HP Web press of your choice and I will use an older offset press. You like typography so lets start with type and then move to register, large solids, uniformity, fleshtones and coated paper while we are at it.

 

By Henry Freedman on Apr 12, 2015

Other comments here.

So in the thread here Roy used HPs newest and largest press to compare. So I chose a new offset sheetfed to keep comparison even. NOTE we still get the under 10 minute color up and running benefits which are huge.

Next, as with any new technology reliability is key on a production floor. Because plants purchase say two presses is an insurance that the production run makes it out the door. So
if you are already in for one and have issues, you put in a second, this is not necessarily
a good thing for the printer.

Henry

 

By Roy Friedman on Apr 12, 2015

If we will take the discussion beyond one brand or the other, most of the shops out there are already heavily invested in offset equipment that can last for years.

Most of the investment today are made by an existing print service provider, and it is not a decision that a new comer has to take, so he is looking in a “tabula rasa” point of view: Should I go conventional ? Should I go Digital?

(There are very few offset presses that can be setup in 10min. And as the print format gets higher it take longer.)

Would be wise, to my opinion for a shop to invest in HW and SW solutions that are available in order to facelift their current offset printing power (ink zones setups, closed loop measuring devise etc.). But in parallel to look into a high speed high quality digital.

One additional note is that a web based high speed inkjet device is targeting specific applications where the a frequent substrate change is not required. If wide span of substrates and short runs is your job basket I guess you need an additional digital sheet fed device.

 

By Frank Romano on Apr 13, 2015

Oh Henry

1. “Shootoffs are a waste of time and money. They are just pissing contests that have little influence on what equipment printers buy.

2. Print buyers are the only folks who matter. They set the standard for quality by what they are willing to pay for. They buy what they see, not what you say they see.

3. This thread started because I praised the HP Web Inkjet Press for its new nozzle technology that ups the quality. Let us not forget that.

4. This is my last post. You can do another if you wish and have the last word.

Frank

 

By Henry Freedman on Apr 13, 2015

OK thanks Frank for parting comment here.

The purchase of a press is a most significant investment for a printing plant as we all know. Most if not all manufacturers have demo centers that do press runs for comparison of their press with existing equipment so in essence everyone does "shoot offs" if they are buying a press and have their head on straight.

One reason I write here is that we have the largest graded press image library database in the world and this is used by the vast majority of press manufacturers and print firms alike. If you can't compare a press you don't know where you stand as compared to others with same press and spending same $$$. We just can't see the reported IJ press imagery matching offset in our work and this is why I spoke up. Much greater detail is available at www.imagetestlabs.com where this work is defined. Thank you Frank for being the host of this topic. To truly educate you must entertain and your videos and comments certainly do both. These discussions are key to this education as well and a great forum and value from WTT for readers. Thanks.

Your friend Henry.